Curse

Silmor · Aug 16, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

If everyone is doing it, the PvE part of this game has become a shallow farmfest, and much like a bot-infested game is unappealing for people actually playing the game, the same will happen here. I hope it won't come to that. But you're missing the mid-way point in your argument - half the people are doing it, and the other half pays the price.

My main point is that I believe Protective Bond and Protective Spirit can be used in a way that ArenaNet did not design it for, in a way that can be abused to severely dumb down the quest for optimal builds to meet PvE challenge. I could be entirely wrong about this, and as was concluded earlier, it's up to ArenaNet to decide what they want to do with it. But I'd prefer Guild Wars with a 'fixed' Spirit/Bond, personal opinion, that's why I do my part to discuss in favor of a 'nerf'.

I'm sure 55/105 bond monks are used to address a lot of other problems: bad PUGs, difficulty to get gold, difficulty to get ectoplasm, you name it. But those are seperate problems that have nothing to do with Protective Bond. Even if there wasn't a single 55/105 farmer left in the game, I'd still be advocating a nerf to the skill, as I have long before this became such a 'hot topic'.

The economic problems you mention are a seperate issue: I was hopeful when I read ArenaNet promised more 'constant' prices, if they however still allow for the buy-low sell-high exloitation then they once again screwed up the traders. This kind of 'commodity farming' has been around since the betas I believe, and simply drives up the prices for regular players while putting money in the pockets of the have-alls, and one good thing the broken traders did before this latest reset was a complete shutdown of this sort of activity - there was no 'sell-high' anymore. If it's back now, that's a sad thing, and I just hope it gets addressed.

But I mentioned the changed prices for superior monk runes specifically as an indication of the scale at which the 55/105 build is used - if it's influential enough to drive those prices to 10x the other superior rune prices, you can't just dismiss it as a minority causing trouble. That was all.

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 16, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Nobody wanted a hammer W/E to come with them to UW anyway; what's the difference if I sub monk and play the game by myself?

Don't ruin other people's fun: The UW solo build is not an exploit, it's a build. What is more, it does not hurt the game for other people - it just enables me to be able to go to UW.

You Rangers are just disapointed that there aren't many prot monks still left around to help you do those smite runs.

Let's make the AI so that all the monsters in UW auto target any ranger setting up a trap. Trapping is an exploit

(Note the sarcasim)

Red Sonya · Aug 16, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

/signed Nerf the 105/55 Monk builds
/signed Nerf the runners to Droknars and other elite places make lvl 16 required for Ascension and entering Droknars, Increase Attribute to 12 for max damage weapons.
/signed Nerf Rangers spamming spirit builds
/signed have fixed prices on NPC merchants for Dyes and Runes and unlimited stocks.

Silmor · Aug 16, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I'm through discussing this, every day more people join the 55/105 farming legion, we'll just have to wait and see how this ends.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 16, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

The Aatxes aren't complaining... Why are you?

Red Locust · Aug 16, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

/signed Nerf the 105/55 Monk builds
/signed Nerf the runners to Droknars and other elite places make lvl 16 required for Ascension and entering Droknars, Increase Attribute to 12 for max damage weapons.
/signed Nerf Rangers spamming spirit builds
/signed have fixed prices on NPC merchants for Dyes and Runes and unlimited stocks.

/signed Bring Stalin back from the grave making him supreme GM over Guild Wars, and declare GW a communist state.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 16, 2005, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

If everyone is doing it, the PvE part of this game has become a shallow farmfest, and much like a bot-infested game is unappealing for people actually playing the game, the same will happen here. I hope it won't come to that. But you're missing the mid-way point in your argument - half the people are doing it, and the other half pays the price.

My main point is that I believe Protective Bond and Protective Spirit can be used in a way that ArenaNet did not design it for, in a way that can be abused to severely dumb down the quest for optimal builds to meet PvE challenge. I could be entirely wrong about this, and as was concluded earlier, it's up to ArenaNet to decide what they want to do with it. But I'd prefer Guild Wars with a 'fixed' Spirit/Bond, personal opinion, that's why I do my part to discuss in favor of a 'nerf'.

I'm sure 55/105 bond monks are used to address a lot of other problems: bad PUGs, difficulty to get gold, difficulty to get ectoplasm, you name it. But those are seperate problems that have nothing to do with Protective Bond. Even if there wasn't a single 55/105 farmer left in the game, I'd still be advocating a nerf to the skill, as I have long before this became such a 'hot topic'.

The economic problems you mention are a seperate issue: I was hopeful when I read ArenaNet promised more 'constant' prices, if they however still allow for the buy-low sell-high exloitation then they once again screwed up the traders. This kind of 'commodity farming' has been around since the betas I believe, and simply drives up the prices for regular players while putting money in the pockets of the have-alls, and one good thing the broken traders did before this latest reset was a complete shutdown of this sort of activity - there was no 'sell-high' anymore. If it's back now, that's a sad thing, and I just hope it gets addressed.

But I mentioned the changed prices for superior monk runes specifically as an indication of the scale at which the 55/105 build is used - if it's influential enough to drive those prices to 10x the other superior rune prices, you can't just dismiss it as a minority causing trouble. That was all.

And my point is that instead of it being rampant monk solo farming, I'm countering it's nothing more than simple commodity trading gone insane. It's nothing more than pure greed, nothing different than the stupid sigil hoarding done by select few guilds, who owned a monopoly on the sigils, and drove the prices and availability through the roof.

Is the solo monk build driving this behavior? Obviously. But it's not a mad rush/influx of farmers, it's people with tons of money buying up the runes to drive up the prices because they saw a commodity that people were wanting, and are exploiting it's need by the community. For all of the people that know about this build, there are probably 10 casual players that DON'T.

Two months ago, people could by superior monk runes for 250g because there are so few monks in the game. I spent probably a total of about 4K for all of my runes to outfit my farming monk, before the prices suddenly shot up. A sudden spike in rune availability doesn't mean suddenly everyone became solo monks, it means someone wanted to corner the market.

And there is nothing wrong with a "lively" market economy, it provides an outlet for players to play the game how they want. It is NOT destroying the PVE "experience" since it has no effect on whether you complete a mission or not - except for the fact that there are less monks available than before, because a lot of them suddenly have something better to do than sit and take abuse from other players for not healing them fast enough. At least Alesia and Lina don't talk back.

TideSwayer · Aug 16, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

The green numbers on skills are determined by a formula with the main variable being attribute level, not by some pre-set setting that ANet has implemented. Instead of hating on Protection Bond for it's formula why don't the haters get to work on finding out what OTHER skills get just a bit more powerful at 17 attribute? There are probably +1 offhands out there for almost every attribute available, if not all.

This game doesn't need LESS of these types of builds. They need MORE. This is the kind of creative build that I'd certainly like to see more of, and instead of nerfing Prot. Bond or anything that hinders the 105/55 Monks out there, I'd actually like to see ANet power-up some other classes' skills so they can have a nice uber-build potential as well. IMO many of the skills in this game use too much energy/have too long a recharge time for a not powerful enough/not long enough effect, and aren't even worth bringing ever. This is the biggest problem in the game right now IMO. 90% of players use the SAME skills and avoid the SAME skills. Make some other combo powerful like this and build variety will follow. Don't break something that works because other stuff doesn't. Adjust that OTHER stuff.

Two other points:

I do agree that in a party everyone should be able to see the other players' hitpoint max/energy max/infused or not/skillbar. I'd actually like to spend the time I idle around in a mission gathering point waiting for the party to fill up by trying to organize the party's build as a whole before going in. (Obviously for most missions in a game this isn't really a factor, but it would be nice to have in any case.) You shouldn't have to ask a monk what kind of monk they are, you shouldn't have to ask your party midway through a mission who brought res signets when the monks are dead, etc....

Money isn't that hard to get. I don't see how people are always crying that they don't have enough money. If this is your first character or if you've just gotten to Lion's Arch for your first time of course you aren't going to have a million dollars. It takes time to build up a sum. If you are in the late game and for some reason your account is low, then just go to one of the later areas/missions and help assist a skillcap group or something (Perdition Rock is a great example). Those groups are always looking for non-party-ditchers and you'll make several plat just on the trip if you ID unpriced items and then sell them to merch. It is my belief (and I strongly stand by this) that by the time Chapter 2 comes out everyone who plays this game frequently will have max account $ anyways (or close to it).

Irongate · Aug 17, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideSwayer

This game doesn't need LESS of these types of builds. They need MORE. This is the kind of creative build that I'd certainly like to see more of, and instead of nerfing Prot. Bond or anything that hinders the 105/55 Monks out there, I'd actually like to see ANet power-up some other classes' skills so they can have a nice uber-build potential as well.

Great idea! Lets all be invincible! Fun. Not.

Aalric · Aug 17, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Sorry if this is a noob question.

What exactly is the Invincible Monk build?

Thanks.

Gizzard Puke · Aug 17, 2005, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Are these 105 monks the reason my "normal" monk keeps getting crap drops?

Was in FOW Monday night, on one of the rare occasions Europe had favour, and all i kept getting was Piles of Glittering Dust, must have ended with 30ish, and lots of other worthless stuff. Even when doin the last 3 missions to finish the game I got nothing worthwhile.

I hope they don't nerf the 105 build cos it seems the only way i'm gonna get anthing half-decent is to go solo.

Has Anet made it so monks get rubbish cos of these soloer's or am i just that unlucky?

Xonic · Aug 17, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizzard Puke

Are these 105 monks the reason my "normal" monk keeps getting crap drops?

Was in FOW Monday night, on one of the rare occasions Europe had favour, and all i kept getting was Piles of Glittering Dust, must have ended with 30ish, and lots of other worthless stuff. Even when doin the last 3 missions to finish the game I got nothing worthwhile.

I hope they don't nerf the 105 build cos it seems the only way i'm gonna get anthing half-decent is to go solo.

Has Anet made it so monks get rubbish cos of these soloer's or am i just that unlucky?

great, a new conspiracy theory on how drop is randomly assigned...

elvis87 · Aug 17, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

what the hell kind of skills do these monks use to make them so invincible, ive watched a few in action and they just wont drop

Algren Cole · Aug 17, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvis87

what the hell kind of skills do these monks use to make them so invincible, ive watched a few in action and they just wont drop

I run a straight monk build, I've seen other variations but this is mine.

5 superior runes for -375 HP(105 HP total @ lvl 20)
off-hand Item -50 HP
off-hand item for +1 protection prayers(20%)

55 HP Total

Healing 12
Smiting 9
Protection 16
Divine Favor 6

Cast Protective bond holding the +1 protective prayers icon until you get a lvl17 protective bond cast. this way you are only losing 1 energy per hit.

take out the -50HP off-hand item so you only have 55 HP and each hit is only doing 3 dmg per hit.

Cast an essence bond then balthazars spirit.

then juggle your stats to this:

Healing 14
Smiting 15
Protection 6
Divine Favor 6

cast a mending for the +4 pip regen.

Complete Skill build:

Zealot's Fire
Balthazar's Spirit
Balthazar's Aura
Protective Bond
Essence Bond
Healing Breeze
Orison of Healing
Mending

aggro up as many enemies as you can and them cast a Zealot's fire, Balthazar Spirit and spam Healing Breeze and Orison until everything is dead.

t45 · Aug 17, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari Veyes

There should be ranger creeps in UW spaming nature's renewal. This would certainly stop UW soloing forever.

*bowsdown*

slasc · Aug 17, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I can tell you one easy way they can nerf the 105 smiter build.
Protective Bonds is the key to the success of this build. When you have 16 Protection Prayers and a 20% chance of casting with +1 more...(i.e. equalling 17 protection prayers) then you can get Protective Bond to the point where it only costs one energy to reduce the amount of dmg you take. If they changed that to where at 17 it would require 2 (like it does for 16) then the 105 smiter monk would actually be seriously detrimented. Probably to the point of no longer being effective at soloing in UW.

I'm glad there's finally a good way for someone to make good money. Unfortunatly, it's only one very specific template. It's a bunch of BS if you ask me. They need to nerf the 105 smiter and increase gold on drops by x3 at least across the entire game.

Mr Zun · Aug 17, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

they aren't immune to defeat. 1 shatter enchantment and its game over and you cannot be ressed.

not our fault they put areas with no enchantment removal. that's the real exploit not the build. there are lots of areas w/o enchant removal.

Actually thy can b ressed all u need is a res sig restores u to full life and energy therefore ur ressed.

Algren Cole · Aug 17, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zun

Actually thy can b ressed all u need is a res sig restores u to full life and energy therefore ur ressed.

The DP works off your entire HP it does not take into consideration your runes. So -15% DP with 5 superior runes leaves you at 33HP -30% DP leaves you at 1 HP anything over this (assuming you are running the 105 build and not the 55) and you won't be able to rez. After a death or two the DP is so high that you actually have negative HP with your armor on. Resurecting to full life won't erase your DP and thus you'll insta-die as soon as you are rez'd.

Mr Zun · Aug 17, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

True i guess i should have specified that they can b ressed once huh?

Stayfrosty · Aug 17, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Invici monks are my favorite.... once they are tanking drop a natures renewal, then after they die cast unyielding aura so that his life is at your mercy.. it did this to my friend once it was very humorous